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Subject: TML biweekly: Msgs 7575-7590 V44#16
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TML biweekly    Wed May 18 21:00:03 EDT 1994    Volume 44 : Issue 16

Today's topics:

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 604  7575 16-May-1994 langsl@cbr.hhcs  Misc. Questions <<                   I 
 604  7576 15-May-1994 Graham Spearing  FF&S Pulse Pistol << There is nothing l
 604  7577 15-May-1994 John Bucsek      Pre-TNE mail list << I'll keep this sho
 604  7578 15-May-1994 David Johnson    TML: A House Divided? << Gentlesophonts
 604  7579 16-May-1994 grue@cs.uq.oz.a  Multiple lists << hi,
 605  7580 16-May-1994 c_hamilton%w036  Re: Deep Space Stations << Archive-Mess
 605  7581 16-May-1994 gerald.s.willia  Civil War? :-) << Let's not have United
 605  7582 16-May-1994 Steven M Bonnev  Project Longbow << Craig Barnett <craig
 605  7583 15-May-1994 Glenn Goffin     NPC swap << Roger Sanger's NPC swap ide
 605  7584 15-May-1994 Mike Basinger    TNE: Excel worksheet 1st ed. done << I 
 605  7585 15-May-1994 James Kundert    The CT/MT list... << In message 602/754
 605  7586 15-May-1994 David Johnson    Shall Not Perish 16 - Regency Navy << G
 605  7587 16-May-1994 James T Perkins  Re: Pre-TNE mail-list  << Thanks, Mark,
 605  7588 16-May-1994 Mark Cook        Re: Pre-TNE mail-list << > Thanks, Mark
 605  7589 16-May-1994 Roger Sanger     For Sale <<  
 605  7590 16-May-1994 Roger Sanger     CT for sale <<  

This is a passively moderated mailing list. All messages sent to the
submission address will be distributed. The biweekly digest is currently
distributed each Wednesday and Sunday at 9:00pm.

Submissions: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca -or- uunet!engrg.uwo.ca!traveller
Administrator: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (James Perkins)

The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bundle: 604
Archive-Message-Number: 7575
Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 12:17:19 +1000
From: langsl@cbr.hhcs.gov.au
Subject: Misc. Questions


                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                      Date:  Sent on: 16-May-1994 12:18pm
                                      From:  Alistair Langsford
                                             LANGSFORD ALISTAIR
                                      Dept:  Information Services
                                      Tel No:289 7870

TO:  Remote Addressee                     ( _traveller@engrg.uwo.ca )


Subject: Misc. Questions

All I need is the air that I breathe...
- ---------------------------------------

One of the hazards of space travel is going to be running out of breathable 
    air. When considering a particular 'scene' for a scenario I was 
    planning, I realised I had no good idea of how long it takes a person 
    to use up the available air in a sealed room. So, some questions for 
    the list.

Imagine you are in a sealed room. How long does it take a person to die 
    because the air gets bad - and why? Is it lack of Oxygen, or the 
    presence of impurities?

If the room is filled not with air, but with Oxygen only:
- -   what atmospheric pressure should it be at to be safe? I believe that if 
    the pressure is too high the atmosphere promotes any sort of minor 
    spark into a serious fire/explosive hazard.

- -   how long before a typical human unfortunate dies from bad air in this 
    scenario.

Some questions on firearms...
- -------------------------------

 ..   At what tech level can you build guns out of non metallic materials?

 ..   What sort of non metallic materials are possible - plastics, carbon 
    fibre, or what? 

 ..   At what tech level can you build caseless ammo and weapons to use it? 
    And when does the result become as practical as weapons using cased 
    ammo?

Note:
    I'm interested in both real world comments as well as comments based on 
    whatever is covered in (CT/MT/TNE) Traveller rules. 

Alistair,
langsl@cbr.hhcs.gov.au


------------------------------

Bundle: 604
Archive-Message-Number: 7576
From: Graham.Spearing@gspear.mettav.royle.org (Graham Spearing)
Reply-To: Graham.Spearing@gspear.mettav.royle.org
Date: 15 May 94  21:19:12
Subject: FF&S Pulse Pistol

There is nothing like running a game of Traveller to make you actually look at
the rules and design information to see if it works.

I have an 'act first think later', hot shot pilot player character, Cal Morgan,
who wants a high tech pistol with some kick. I gave him a Gauss pistol. On
reflection I thought I would try to design a heavy TL 11 pistol utilising
electro-chemical propulsion; I picked up FF&S and had a go. This produced some
interesting results, and a weapon much more to Cal's tastes. Below are all the
workings for the weapon with design notes, followed by an observation on the
Gauss pistol stats in the upgrade booklet:


TL 11 ECT Magnum 'Pulse Pistol'
(It's not a blaster, but it's the next best thing . . .)

Ammunition Design

Caliber                     10.0 mm
Cartridge Case Length       23.0 mm
Bullet Length               33.0 mm
Bullet Weight               14 grams
Average Muzzle Energy       1879 joules
Bullet Price    Slug        0.28 Cr
                HE          0.56 Cr
                DS          0.56 Cr
                HEAP        0.84 Cr

Weapon Design

Average Barrel Length       10 cm
Actual Barrel Length        11 cm
Barrel Type                 Light
Barrel Weight               0.22 kg
Barrel Cost                 44 Cr

Actual Muzzle Energy        1972 joules
Damage          Slug        3
                HE          5
                DS          3
                HEAP        5

Penetration     Slug        1-Nil
                HE          Nil
                DS          1-2-Nil
                HEAP        2-2-2

Receiver                    Light Self Loading
Rate of Fire                SA - Semi Automatic
Receiver        Length      17 cm
                Weight      1.2395 kg
                Price       447.9 Cr
Stock                       Hollow Pistol Grip
                Length      0 cm
                Weight      0.1 kg
                Price       25 Cr

Weapon Range                32 m
Grip Magazine Capacity      10
Magazine Weight             0.2476 Kg
Magazine Price              52 Cr

Recoil Reduction            Electrothermal Action



Component       Length          Weight      Price (Cr)
- ---------------------------------------------------------

Barrel          11              0.22        44
Receiver        17              1.2395      447.9
Grip                            0.1         25
Magazine                        0.2476      52

Weapon Empty    28 cm           1.8071 kg   568.9 Cr
10 rounds 10x33mm               0.14        2.8 Cr

Weapon Loaded   28 cm           1.9471 kg   571.7 Cr

Bulk        2
Recoil      3

Summary Combat Stats

TL 11 Heavy Pulse Pistol
                                                          Recoil
Weapon                      Rof Dam     Pen      Blk Mag SS  Brst Rng

10mm Pulse Pistol - Slug    SA  3       1-Nil    2   10   3   -   32
10mm Pulse Pistol - DS      SA  3       1-2-Nil  2   10   3   -   38
10mm Pulse Pistol - HE      SA  5       Nil      2   10   3   -   24
10mm Pulse Pistol - HEAP    SA  5       2-2-2    2   10   3   -   24


Design Notes

My first stab at designing using FF&S. A very user friendly product, and soon
got results. If you spot any bad errors let me know.

The major difficulty with this design was keeping the weight down! With such a
high muzzle energy the receiver came in at a hefty 1.2 kg. I fiddled with the
muzzle energy to get it out at under 2001 to preserve the 1-Nil penetration.

Why do weapons with muzzle energy of 2001 to 3000 drop penetration back to
2-Nil????????

The ECT weapon system had battery weight costs for the magazine, but took away
the recoil due to it's firing mechanism.

I found the barrel length and casing length vital to the design, as this
determined the muzzle energy, and thus the receiver characteristics. I rifled
the barrel. Is this ok on a pistol? (I am afraid I don't know anything about
real guns).

The weapon is a heavy sidearm, known as a 'Pulse Pistol' as ECT weapons use an
intense pulse of electrical energy to ignite the working fluid in the round to
a plasma state. ACRs in my campaign are called Pulse Rifles. . .

Having put together my design I looked back at the Gauss pistol in the upgrade
booklet to see how it compared. I just couldn't believe how poor the stats
were. TL 13 weapon with a SS recoil of 5? It can fire bursts, but with a recoil
of 11? A short range of 11 meters?

I applied a quick assumption that the pistol had a Muzzle Velocity of 1500
(FF&S p.102). Without designing the whole system, and using the knowns found in
the upgrade booklet, I reckon the stats for the weapon should look more like
below:

TL 13 Gauss Pistol
                                                 Recoil
Weapon                  Rof Dam  Pen    Blk Mag SS  Brst Rng

4mm Gauss Pistol - Dart  5   2   Nil    1   35   2   6   19
4mm Gauss Pistol - HEAP  5   3   2-2-2  1   35   2   6   14
4mm Gauss Pistol - tranq 5   -1  Nil    1   35   2   5   11

I struggle to get the stats found in the upgrade booklet. Any thoughts anyone?

I am now into session 2 of refereeing DGP's 'Flaming Eye' campaign, using the
wholly superior TNE rule set. I believe the Imperium to be a superior
background, and TNE to be a better set of rules. Right now I have the best of
both worlds.

Happy Travelling

Graham Spearing

Internet:    Graham.Spearing@gspear.mettav.royle.org


------------------------------

Bundle: 604
Archive-Message-Number: 7577
From: bucsek@oo.com (John Bucsek)
Subject: Pre-TNE mail list
Date: Sun, 15 May 94 22:33:03 EST


I'll keep this short, but here is my .02Cr on splitting the list.  I enjoyed
CT and never really liked MT.  I can deal with TNE.  Except for the change in
the Maneuver Drives I like the new vehicle design better.
 
I don't want to see the mailing list split.  But seeing how some people pay
for their mail by the byte I can understand not wanting to recieve mail you
don't want.  It is throwing money away to them.  For me mail is part of my
basic service at a local BBS. For $0.25 an hour I can afford extra mail.  So
rather than lose the CT posters, I must say split the list.  I can afford to
subscribe to another mailing list and I will as I'm interested in Traveller in
ALL forms.
 
The tagging of messages by prefixing them with a CT, MT, or TNE was a great
idea.  And would work if this was a newsgroup and I could use a off line
reader.  With the mailing list though, you still run into the price per byte
for some people.
 
Again, these are my views, but I believe they make sense.
 
One last comment on something someone else mentioned.  TSR supports multiple
setting for AD&D.  You're right. Why didn't GDW do the same?  And rather than
the virus, cleaning up after the Rebellion would have taken a few hundred
years anyway.
 
John Bucsek
bucsek@oo.com


------------------------------

Bundle: 604
Archive-Message-Number: 7578
Date: Sun, 15 May 94 22:00:41 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TML: A House Divided?

Gentlesophonts:

Okay, you may remember when James initially posted the suggestion of
creating another mailing list for the anti-TNE crowd that I jumped at
the idea.  Since then I've had some second thoughts.

I'm going to get to Mark Cook's arguments for the separate list in a moment.
(Nothing personal Mark, you're just a handy proponent.)  First though, I'd
like to explain my own situation.  I'm pretty new to TML - only having 
subscribed in January of this year.  I think since then though, I've been
a pretty active contributor - for good or ill!  :-)  I started the CT/MT
vs. TNE background discussion a while back and I think most of you ought
to know that I have little use for TNE.  I don't give a hoot about rules
(I never even used the CT/MT rules for much of anything except character
and world generation) and I feel the TNE background offers *nothing* over
what could have been done with a CT/MT `frontier sourcebook'.  While I 
have just about *every* GDW and DGP product since those first `Three Little
Black Books', I have not purchased *any* TNE products and I'm seriously
considering letting my subscription to *Challenge*, which goes back to
*JTAS* #5, expire.

That said, Mark Cook <markc@CSOS.ORST.EDU> writes:

> Join both groups.  If the hassle is too much, maybe your enthusiasm isn't
> enough.

One might suggest the same about `oldtimers' who find it too much hassle to
put up with the `noise' of TNE postings.

> That's not really the point.  We (the anti-TNE folks) want to not have to
> wade through the low signal-to-noise ratio that TNE presents in the TML.

I'm not sure I buy this.  If all these folks were still contributing there
wouldn't be such a `low signal-to-noise' ratio.

> It a separate group, it ceases to be a problem for us, and those of you
> that enjoy TNE (and creamed spinich and enemas and so on...) can stay
> right here and do exactly what you've been doing all along.
> 
> > Seems like a rather lopsided issue to me.
> 
> Seems like a pretty selfish one to me.  You'd rather keep us around, even
> when we don't want to be here, rather than lose part of your audience?

Hmmm.  There seems to be plenty `selfishness' to go around here.  Look, 
I'm just as pissed as anyone at what GDW has done to Traveller and I don't
appreciate these `newbies' bitching about my `whining' all the time either
but that doesn't mean I want to pick up my toys and go play by myself.

> This may cause many folks that dropped out to come back.  The flip side
> is many are leaving anyway, they just don't have anywhere else to go.
> The separate mailing list would resolve that.

I doubt it, but I'd like to offer a challenge to allow you to prove me wrong.
Let's have all these hordes of oldtimers `walk their walk' instead of just
`talk their talk'.  Let's see what this new mailing list would look like
right her in TML.  Beginning June 1st (which should give enough time to
get the word out and to let folks transitioning from school to get settled
for the summer) let's have `Pre-TNE Days on TML' for all these oldtimers
who are just bursting with megabytes of pre-PIE-in-the-sky information to
contribute.

I would *love* the opportunity to participate in discussions about Imperial
background.  That's what I loved about HIWG (except I wasn't `on-line'
with GENIE which kept me somewhat `ghettoized').  I would *love* to develop
*other* campaign backgrounds like the Earth Colonies on TNE.  If folks were
really contributing like this I suspect all the TNE devotees would be
`dropping out' or clamoring for their `own' list.  (Sorry, newbies.)

But I don't think that will happen.  I suspect those folks who are dropping
out have a variety of other reasons besides merely the TNE `signal-to-
noise' ratio - things like other priorities in their lives now, something
that happens to all of us.  But please, go ahead and prove me wrong beginning
June 1st.

I also think there is another problem with creating a new list.  Namely, if we
start with the anti-TNE crowd, where do we stop?  I (and many others I
suspect) was never very pleased with MegaTraveller and the Rebellion.  Do
we get a pre-MT/Rebellion list next?  How about a `background only' list
so I don't have to be hassled by all those pesky, boring discussions about
laser comm frequencies and starship lavatory design?  What about an anti-
Grandfather list for those of us who disliked that whole fantasy trip?
And another list where the Sword Worlds don't have those d**ned economic
cycles of Hans's?  :-)

Now, please, Mark (and others), let's not have more argument about our
arguments about a new list.  Just take me up on my challenge and start
posting all that pre-TNE stuff to the TML.  You don't even have to wait
until June 1st - get that `signal-to-noise' ratio up *now* because every bit
of bandwidth that's wasted arguing against me instead of being pre-TNE
posts just makes my case and argues against a separate list.

". . . [A] house divided against itself, cannot stand."

                               -Abraham Lincoln

Peace,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 604
Archive-Message-Number: 7579
Date: Mon, 16 May 94 22:26:42 EST
From: grue@cs.uq.oz.au
Subject: Multiple lists

hi,

Mark Cook wrote lots of stuff about the split [which I've removed]

        I tend to agree with Mark.  I'd prefer a second list dealing
with non TNE stuff.  Even though I don't dislike TNE too much, the volume
has been a little intense recently.

Guess this means I vote for the split.



                                                        Pauli

I never made the top 10 posters :-(, only got into the top 20 :-)



------------------------------

Bundle: 605
Archive-Message-Number: 7580
Date: Mon, 16 May 94 10:08:47 EDT
From: c_hamilton%w036_nw@MWMGATE1.mitre.org
Subject: Re: Deep Space Stations

Archive-Message-Number: 7554
From: CHiggin@aol.com

>From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)

>>On Deep Space Stations:

>>It's possible they don't often make much economic sense.  (Maybe I'll do
>>a quick analysis sometime.)  But they might make very good military
>>sense, as a refueling depot.  All you need are the hulls for holding

>Believe me, they make enormous military sense!  Deep space stations
>(particularly mine) altered the entire strategic picture of the
>Islands War in Steve's TCS game.  The use of deep space stations would
>have changed the entire course of the Fifth Frontier War, if the Zhos
>or the Imperials had used them...

>[...] The war changes to one of fortifying and
>defending bodies of strategic interest, like home worlds and major
>colonies.  [...]  Otherwise, your
>planet better have massive orbital fortifications and/or planetary
>defenses, or it is a sitting duck for the first fleet to pop out of
>jump-space at the 100-diameter limit

>I've rationalized the use of deep space stations in the Islands, and
>lack of their use by the Imperium by deciding that it is a very
>difficult navigational task to jump to and from deep space points.
>The Island nations had a good supply of such skilled navigators
>because the Island worlds are so scattered that merchant ships and
>many military vessels *must* use multiple deep-space jumps to get
>anywhere.  Most of the Imperial worlds are close enough together that
>Imperial ships can jump from world to world, and thus the necessary
>skill to be a ship's navigator isn't as high, and deep-space jumping
>is not a standard part of basic Imperial navigator training.  I
>also venture to add that Impy merchants consider deep-space jumping
>as risky a practice as burning unrefined fuel in your jump drive, and
>discourage it.  So do their insurers.  Someone else can explain why
>the Imperial Navy and Zho Navy don't do it very often...

OK, let me propose why the Impies and Zhos don't use 'em: it's a 
*political* decision.

Suppose deep-space refueling stations are common.  Then, worlds which
are 6-12 parsecs in from the border become vulnerable to attack without
warning.  They would thus want some defensive elements stationed full-
time in their system.  This would probably at least quadruple the fleet
elements that would have to be deployed to provide "border coverage" for
all these "non-border" systems.

Can the Navy support all these requests?  I don't think this is likely.
You run the risk of being spread too thin.  So what is the enterprising
World Leader to do?  Build a big system fleet or lots of planetary
defense fortifications.

However, how are a planet's big system defense fleets and large planetary
defense batteries perceived by its Larger Political Entity (Imperium or Con-
sulate)?  I think they do not like them at all.  First I'll give some
Traveller facts and then I'll do some interpretation.

Fact 1: Planetary defense forts are not covered in Traveller literature.  The
closest thing is "planetary defense battalions" from the boardgame "Invasion:
Earth", which are not that effective.

Fact 2: System defense boats are the accepted mechanism for system defense.
But, the quantities for these seem very low.  I think a Traveller News
Service brief from the JTAS "War" issue read something like "the ten heavy
SDBs in the Regina system were sent to defend the system gas giant, which
would be the first priority of an attacking fleet."  This seems like a
very small number for a world at the edge of the Imperium.

Interpretation: The Larger Political Entity (Imperium or Consulate) does
not allow large system defense forces.  This would give too much power
to the individual worlds.  By taking responsibility for defense of the
whole LPE, the LPE Navy can be used for "showing the flag" and other semi-
coercive means of keeping the member worlds in line.  This will allow the
member worlds to exist together more peacefully, since they can't easily 
have internal military disputes.  (Also makes single-world rebellions
difficult.)

To summarize Cynthia, deep-space refueling implies the need to fortify
planetary bodies.  Given the need to enforce internal cohesion, however,
the Imperium and Consulate have decided to not allow large (autonomous)
planetary defenses.  Thus, they both did not use deep space refueling
stations during the Frontier Wars.

I would assume large planetary defenses (and fuel dumps) would be much
more prevalent in Trillion Credit Squadron games, which have much smaller
(probably single-system) political entities.

Comments are appreciated...

- -----

Chuck Hamilton                                           clh@mitre.org

"Crew or frozen watch casualties are replaced free at any naval base."

                                     - Trillion Credit Squadron, p. 35


------------------------------

Bundle: 605
Archive-Message-Number: 7581
From: gsw@aloft.att.com (gerald.s.williams)
Date: Mon, 16 May 94 08:57:35 EDT
Subject: Civil War? :-)

Let's not have United Traveller vs. CT/TNE list wars here.

As far as I see, the only issue is if enough people are
interested in an "old traveller" mailing list, especially
those that have already left because of TNE.  People who
want it all can just subscribe to both.

The only inconvenience this should cause is if a great
deal of cross-posting occurs, although given that the
past high-volume contributors have largely been quiet or
left the list, this seems unlikely.

Other than discussing valid impediments to splitting the
list, let's not argue about it or take sides.

Jerry

P.S. I would be interested in joining the new list.


------------------------------

Bundle: 605
Archive-Message-Number: 7582
Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 02:23:56 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: Project Longbow


Craig Barnett <craig@rlyeh.hna.com.au> writes:

>Exactly _what_ is Project Longbow, and what is the significance of the
>date 70 years after the received message in SM?  Has any further information
>been made available yet, or do we have to wait (as we do for the Regency
>sourcebook, which IMHO should have been the first sourcebook released for
>TNE, but that's another story)?

Officially, we don't know a blessed thing except the vague allusions in
_Survival Margin_.  Much like the whole "Who are these IRIS people?"
business from Strephon.  A quick unofficial guess-work analysis:

Longbow appears to be some sort of psionic-based interstellar communications
project, possibly in the research phase since prior to the First Civil War
and First Interstellar War, which appearently has come to fruition by the
early 1100s, at least enough to cause Strephon to consider repeal of the
Psionics Suppression Acts of the early 800s.  

Someone or something named Pentecost is connected to the project.  Pentecost
was the day upon which the disciples of Jesus were "filled with the Holy
Spirit and began to speak in other tongues", and is a Jewish feast day 
celebrating the first fruits of the harvest.

Longbow was apparently being used to warn the Imperial government of some
sort of mysterious threat approaching the Imperium at superluminal speeds
and which would apparently reach the outer borders in about 1202.

Make of the tidbits what you will.  Apparently Pentecost went missing
during the Rebellion.  Strephon apparently witnessed a test from the
Depot at Lishun to Capital, but we don't know much since he was busy
waxing obscure...er, poetic.  This is one of those "increasing the aura
of mystery" things that GDW is so hot on these days.  (No implied value
judgment intended.)

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Bundle: 605
Archive-Message-Number: 7583
Date: Sun, 15 May 1994 23:27:46 -0700
From: Glenn Goffin <ggoffin@igc.apc.org>
Subject: NPC swap

Roger Sanger's NPC swap idea is very good, and I'll be posting some
NPCs soon.  I hope that a lot of referees participate; having other
people's ideas in a campaign helps keep it from becoming one-
dimensional.

On another subject, the discussions about the Sword Worlds and the
political economy of the Imperium are just what I was hoping to find 
here--high minded, thoughtful discourse.

Finally, I urge James not to split the mailing list.  Even though I'm
running a CT era campaign with MT rules, and have no intention of 
learning the GDW "house" system of TNE, I will still follow the
TNE discussions and look for ideas for my own campaign.

------------------------------

Bundle: 605
Archive-Message-Number: 7584
From: Mike Basinger <dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: TNE: Excel worksheet 1st ed. done
Date: Sun, 15 May 1994 23:37:33 -0500 (EST)

I just finish version 0.1 of my Traveller:TNE spreadsheet for Excel.
This version has no math functions in it, it is only the character
sheet from the TNE book in a spreadsheet form.

I plan in the near future:
- -     random homeworld generation
- -     random stats generation
- -     calculate Hit Capacity and Derived Values
- -     whatever people suggest to me

Can someone give me instruction on how to upload it to the ftp site.

many thanks,
mike

ps: Please note the TNE: subject header in my message (Can't we all
just get along :-)

- -- 
D. Michael Basinger:    Not speaking for Indiana University
                        dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
                        dbasinge@nations.ucs.indiana.edu (NeXT Mail)

------------------------------

Bundle: 605
Archive-Message-Number: 7585
Date: Sun, 15 May 94 22:03:56 PDT
From: James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
Subject: The CT/MT list...

In message 602/7546, Our Illustrious List Administrator said:

 >I am announcing my plans to create a second Traveller Mailing List.

 I admit to mixed feelings about this move, but will probably end
up subscribed to both lists.

 >We've lost a lot of creative and interesting people. This represents
 >a loss of valuable talent to the game and a loss to the TML community.

  While I agree with this statement, I can't see that creating a
seperate group for CT/MT folks will reverse the "loss to the game"
except among the TML lists.

 >This list will exist to discuss the Imperium in the Classic and
 >Rebellion period. It will focus on the black book and MegaTraveller
 >environment. It will not be a totally TNE-free zone.

  Similarly, the "base-line" TML will not be a CT/MT-free zone.  I
refuse to cater to isolationists' desires for a monopoly of information.
My Traveller posts will go to _whoever_ is interested, on either list.
  Also, given the nature of netters and gamers, the list split will
not end the superiority argument/gripe.  I refuse to point fingers at
current TMLers, but the publicity that the split will demand will
inevitably attract new members to both lists whose interest is in
"The Difference". I have yet to see a group of netters who can
completely resist that kind of salt in an old wound.  Expect flare-ups.

 >Depending on initial response, application of TNE rules to the
 >Classic and Rebellion settings may be tolerated.

  As most of the CT/MT folks are primarily hot about the setting (or,
in their words, the lack of one), I certainly _hope_ that rules
cross-overs will be "tolerated".  Why?
  One of this list's strong points used to be its vehicle posts and
discussions.  Unfortunately, the primary vehicle designers are all
among the Anti-TNE group, and most have not bothered to even _glance_
at the TNE vehicle design rules (I'm sure someone will respond and
give us a list of reasons for this, so I won't anticipate them).
  I have used every edition of the rules.  I started my Traveller
years with the purchase of the brand new JTAS #4. I consider the
current ship-building and ship-to-ship combat rules to be better
meshed and more usable than ANY previous edition. ANY. What's more,
these rules are such that they can be used with any previous edition
of the roleplaying rules with much less translation work than might
be expected. Part of the work has already been done
(see TML message 534/6615 for "Three-Pack Turrets").  I'm sure
that the rest will be discussed in detail. You have only ask, and
the TML will produce _someone_ with an answer.


James Kundert <j.kundert@genie.geis.com>
              <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was much faster, much faster than Light.
She departed one day in a relative way,
And returned on the previous Night.
   --Albert & the Heart of Gold

------------------------------

Bundle: 605
Archive-Message-Number: 7586
Date: Sun, 15 May 94 22:35:05 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: Shall Not Perish 16 - Regency Navy

Gentlesophonts:

Dug out my *Rebellion Sourcebook* and pulled out the following information
to start some development of the Regency Navy for our TML Regency sourcebook
*Shall Not Perish*.

First off, the *RS* states that a typical Imperial sector fleet consists
of about 1000 combat ships (battles, cruisers, carriers and escorts as
opposed to tankers, scouts and auxilliarires) which averages out to 62.5
ships per subsector.  Each subsector has a `numbered' regular fleet and
a `reserve' colonial fleet.  A numbered fleet has 2-10 squadrons and from
50-200 ships.  This suggests that the `1000 ships' number must only refer
to numbered fleets since an average of 62.5 ship per subsector would mean
only 31 ships each for the numbered and reserve fleets.  This is consistent
with other comments that the sector fleet is composed of the numbered 
subsector fleets but conflicts with statements that include the reserve 
fleet as part of the sector fleet.  Nevertheless, I'll deal with only
the numbered fleet ships here.

So here's a break down of the Regency Navy based upon the information in
the *RS* (all numbers are approximate):

Spinward Marches Fleet (11 fleets, 687 ships):
212th Fleet (Jewell)              213th Fleet (Regina)
214th Fleet (Aramis)              193rd Fleet (Vilis)
18th Fleet (Lanth)                23rd Fleet (Rhylanor)
43rd Fleet (Lunion)               73rd Fleet (Mora)
208th Fleet (Five Sisters)        100th Fleet (Glisten)
207th Fleet (Trin's Veil)

Deneb Fleet (16 fleets, 1000 ships):
194th Fleet (Pretoria)            212th Fleet (Lamas) [same # as Jewell?]
151st Fleet (Antra)               61st Fleet (Million)
195th Fleet (Sabine)              257th Fleet (Inar)
125th Fleet (Dunmag)              88th Fleet (Atsah)
196th Fleet (Star Lane)           258th Fleet (Vincennes)
154th Fleet (Usani)               183rd Fleet (Geniishir)*
193rd Fleet (Gulf)                260th Fleet (Zeng)
55th Fleet (Kamlar)*              184th Fleet (Vast Heavens)*
*probably reduced strength due to smaller patrol area

Trojan Reach Fleet (4 fleets, 250 ships):
201st Fleet (Pax Rulin)*          202nd Fleet (Gazulin)
203rd Fleet (Sindal)*             204th Fleet (Tobia)
*probably reduced strength due to smaller patrol area

Reft Fleet (3 fleets, 188 ships)
19th Fleet (Vestus)               74th Fleet (Macon)*
128th Fleet (Usher)*
*probably reduced strength due to smaller patrol area

Total Regency Navy (c1120): 34 fleets, 2125 ships

Several fleets have been `displaced' as a result of the Viral and *ihatei*
assaults: 151st Fleet, 61st Fleet, 125th Fleet, 88th Fleet, 55th Fleet,
184th Fleet, 203rd Fleet and 204th Fleet.

These assets might have been transferred to the Quarantine Service.

There's lot's of development work to do here: squadron composition of each
of these 34 fleets, squadron and fleet commanders, deployment and force
compositions, etc.

Jump in and have a bite!

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 605
Archive-Message-Number: 7587
Subject: Re: Pre-TNE mail-list 
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Administrator)
Date: Mon, 16 May 94 10:34:23 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@sp-eug.com>


Thanks, Mark, for taking the pre-TNE position and expressing it more
eloquently than I have.

The level of contribution today is similar to what the old TML enjoyed,
but the contributor's names and the topics are quite different. The old
TMLers are now no longer listening, and pre-TNE era support, which these
people would love to do, founders due to lack of a forum in which to
discuss it.

The sheer volume of the postings is what turn off several many listeners
- -- even casual listeners frequently drop the TML because they cannot
drink from the fire hose.

The subject line (and enforcement) idea has given me an idea. Currently
TMLers can select three frequencies: nightly, twice-weekly, and archive
bundle. Maybe a better approach is for TML to join the information age
and allow subscribers to select digests automatically cutomized to their
interests, filtering the traffic for them, based on article subject
lines. These digests would allow each subscriber to adjust the traffic
level as well as topical interest.

Users could subscribe to any or all of the following subject interest
areas (notice that existing topical interest lists like CAT could easily
be grafted on as topical subject areas of TML):

        CAT             - Computer-Aided Traveller
        Classic         - Black Book/Traveller Book Ruleset
        MT              - MegaTraveller Ruleset
        TNE             - TNE Ruleset
        Imperium        - Third Imperium Era
        Rebellion       - Rebellion Era
        Regency?        - Regency Era
        Admin           - List Administrivia
        Announce        - New product, list, pbem announcements, etc.
        Miscellaneous   - Stuff that doesn't fit the above

What it would take from me is a serious dedication of time to develop
the filterers and list management. I'd also need to add a robo-admin to
allow people to automatically maintain their list of topical items, and
develop instructions clear enough that even net-newbies can deal with
them.

Sounds like a lot of work, more than I may be willing to chew off.
Still, it's interesting. I'll let you know if there's any chance this is
doable.

In the mean time, it would probably be wise for me to set up the simple,
pre-TNE mailing list to stop the exodus today before the Third Imperium
dies in the hearts of its fans.

James

__   __/         /   /      Internet Traveller Mailing List, Administrator
    /     /  /  /   /      James T. Perkins in Eugene, Oregon, USA
 __/   __/__/__/ _____/   traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca

------------------------------

Bundle: 605
Archive-Message-Number: 7588
From: Mark Cook <markc@CSOS.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pre-TNE mail-list
Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 11:37:21 -0700 (PDT)

> Thanks, Mark, for taking the pre-TNE position and expressing it more
> eloquently than I have.

Thanks.  I appear, however, to have ruffled some feathers in the
TNE camp.  Sigh.

> The sheer volume of the postings is what turn off several many listeners
> -- even casual listeners frequently drop the TML because they cannot
> drink from the fire hose.

Well put, and dead on target, IMHO.

> Users could subscribe to any or all of the following subject interest
> areas (notice that existing topical interest lists like CAT could easily
> be grafted on as topical subject areas of TML):
> 
>       CAT             - Computer-Aided Traveller
>       Classic         - Black Book/Traveller Book Ruleset
>       MT              - MegaTraveller Ruleset
>       TNE             - TNE Ruleset
>       Imperium        - Third Imperium Era
>       Rebellion       - Rebellion Era
>       Regency?        - Regency Era
>       Admin           - List Administrivia
>       Announce        - New product, list, pbem announcements, etc.
>       Miscellaneous   - Stuff that doesn't fit the above
> 
> What it would take from me is a serious dedication of time to develop
> the filterers and list management...
> 
> Sounds like a lot of work, more than I may be willing to chew off.
> Still, it's interesting. I'll let you know if there's any chance this is
> doable.

I'd be willing to investigate mechanisms to help implement this
scheme (which I like a *lot*) when I get back from Central America,
if you're interested in any help.

> In the mean time, it would probably be wise for me to set up the simple,
> pre-TNE mailing list to stop the exodus today before the Third Imperium
> dies in the hearts of its fans.

Yes, please.  If introduced as a transitional tool (of indeterminate
duration), we can placate the anti-TNE camp (which I sit firmly in),
and then work on a more elegant solution (such as you propose above)
at our leisure.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@csos.orst.edu
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
"When your enemy falls, don't rejoice -- but don't pick him up either."
                                             - Yiddish proverb

------------------------------

Bundle: 605
Archive-Message-Number: 7589
Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 11:57:48 -0700
From: rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger)
Subject: For Sale
 
                           FOR SALE
 
    ==== Flaming Eye Campaign Sourcebook     Digest Group Publications
 
Rodge.
 

------------------------------

Bundle: 605
Archive-Message-Number: 7590
Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 11:59:48 -0700
From: rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger)
Subject: CT for sale

 
 
I have the following classic Traveller items for sale:
 
    ==== Book 1 -- Characters and Combat                          GDW
 
    ==== Book 2 -- Starships                                      GDW
 
    ==== Book 3 -- Worlds and Adventures                          GDW
 
    ==== Book 4 -- Mercenary                                      GDW
 
    ==== Book 5 -- High Gaurd                                     GDW
 
    ==== Book 6 -- Scouts                                         GDW
 
    ==== Supplement  1 -- 1001 Characters                         GDW
 
    ==== Supplement  2 -- Animal Encounters                       GDW
 
    ==== Supplement  3 -- The Spinward Marches                    GDW
 
    ==== Supplement  4 -- Citizens of the Imperium                GDW
 
    ==== Supplement  6 -- 76 Patrons                              GDW
 
    ==== Supplement  8 -- Library Data A-M                        GDW
 
    ==== Supplement 11 -- Library Data N-Z                        GDW
 
    ==== Adventure  1 -- The Kinunir                              GDW
 
    ==== Adventure  2 -- Research Station Gamma                   GDW
 
    ==== Adventure  3 -- Twilight's Peak                          GDW
 
    ==== Adventure  4 -- Leviathan                                GDW
 
    ==== Adventure  5 -- Trillion Credit Squadron                 GDW
 
    ==== Adventure  6 -- Expedition to Zhodane                    GDW
 
    ==== Adventure  9 -- Nomads of the World-Ocean                GDW
 
    ==== Adventure 10 -- Safari Ship                              GDW
 
    ==== Adventure 11 -- Murder on Arcturus Station               GDW
 
    ==== Double Adventure 1 -- Annic Nova / Shadows               GDW
 
    ==== Double Adventure 2 -- Mission on Mithril/Bright Face     GDW
 
    ==== Double Adventure 3 -- Death Station / The Argon Gambit   GDW
 
    ==== Double Adventure 3 -- Death Station/Argon Gambit         GDW
 
    ==== Double Adventure 4 -- Marooned / Marooned Alone          GDW
 
    ==== Double Adventure 5 -- The Chamax Plague / Horde          GDW
 
    ==== Double Adventure 6 -- Conquest / Intervention            GDW
 
    ==== Tarsus (boxed adventure)                                 GDW
 
    ==== Alien Module 1 -- Aslan                                  GDW
 
    ==== Alien Module 3 -- Vargr                                  GDW
 
    ==== Alien Module 8 -- Darrians                               GDW
 
    ==== Alien Realms                                             GDW
 
    ==== Best of the Journal 1                                    GDW
 
    ==== Best of the Journal 2                                    GDW
 
    ==== Best of the Journal 3                                    GDW
 
    ==== Best of the Journal 4                                    GDW
 
Rodge.


------------------------------

End of TML Biweekly
******************
